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Douse the Dogs of War

Cry 'Knock it off!' and douse the dogs of war!
  [vote for,

Inspired by the title of a recent Intelligence Squared U.S. debate, 'The US has no dog in the fight in Syria'. At one point in the debate, Graham Allison asks the audience 'If you walk around a corner and come upon two dogs fighting, what do you do?'. He left the question unanswered, as an exercise for the audience. Well, in literal terms, the best way to safely separate two fighting dogs is to douse them with a bucket of water.

My thought is this: Fly Evergreen 747 Supertankers over hotspots in Syria and douse the combatants with a 24,000-gallon torrent of water. Repeatedly. Until they pack up and leave the area or get flooded out.

21 Quest, Sep 08 2013


       There's gotta be something better to dump on them than water. Like rocks, or what else do they have a lot of out there, sand or camels, or camel dung. Maybe the supertanker could stop in afghanistan and pickup 24000 gallons of taliban fighters and drop them from 10000 feet.

       But to answer the dogs question, I'd probably not stick around and let the dogs fight it out. They're dogs afterall. What's the purpose of the question, does asking it imply that Obamas solution would be to strike the dogss nerve gas facilities with guided missiles from a 100 000 tonne floating airport that can do 60 clicks in water. Hey, and what happens if somthing 100 000 tonnes moving 60km*hr bumps into something? Does the other thing explode?
rcarty, Sep 08 2013

       It's a desert nation. They're used to sandstorms and probably wouldn't be deterred by that... camels, of course, would have PETA up your ass. History suggests that a planefull of Taliban fighters isn't statistically likely to reach its destination... camel dung isn't a bad suggestion but might stick in the retardant tanks and fail to drop all at once. Water in large quantities isn't something they're used to dealing with.
21 Quest, Sep 08 2013

       What about dropping thousands of fighting dogs. They're supposedly adverse to dogs, and consider it an insult. Maybe the commentator you mentioned was insulting both assad and his al quaida opponents.
rcarty, Sep 08 2013

       Bacon grease.
ytk, Sep 08 2013

       Since it is a Muslim-influenced nation, the most abhorrent thing to drop on them is pigs. We should build smallish hang-gliders, attach a pig to each one, and release them by the plane-load, letting them fly safely down. The shock of landing should be sensed by a small electronic circuit that releases the harness holding the pig to the hang glider, so it becomes free to roam, causing the human combatants to think of something else instead of fighting each other.
Vernon, Sep 09 2013

       </in bad taste> You guys are brilliant. So the best plan would be to get both sides in the conflict so pissed with us that they stop fighting each other and ally to find some way to strike back against us and our allies. I say drop massive amounts of gay porn featuring the prophet who shall remain nameless. </in bad taste>
WcW, Sep 09 2013

       Not really applicable, but in this case we're just trying to smack one of the dogs with a rolled up newspaper because it urinated on the carpet.
scad mientist, Sep 09 2013

       My goal is to simply make them stop fighting in as nonviolent, inoffensive a manner as possible. If we dropped pigs or pig byproducts on them, we might turn the whole Muslim world against us. I'm not entirely convinced, at this time, that we should back either side of the conflict, but the civilians need to be protected.
21 Quest, Sep 09 2013

       Well, since the hypothetical scenario offered in the title and the idea text is likely meant as an insult towards muslims because 'dog' is considered a grave insult, we should all use the opportunity to gravely insult in kind. I'm personally tired of hearing all of the idiotic news coming out of that region, from the Arab Spring to zerg rushes on diplomatic facillities because of low budget films, to bin laden in pakistan, everything makes me cringe. Who cares if they're offended by pigs and dogs, it's time to rain the poo of those animals from the sky upon them.
rcarty, Sep 09 2013

       I think the biggest problem with this idea is practical. In order to be effective, the plane would have to be flying pretty low—low enough to be vulnerable to SAMs, which a 747 is not exactly well-equipped to dodge. Drop the water from high enough up that you're out of the range of even a MANPADS, and you're probably just going to create little more than a pleasant drizzle.
ytk, Sep 09 2013

       DIRCM, chaff/flare dispensers, and maybe a modified Phalanx CIWS-like system?
21 Quest, Sep 09 2013

       Now, see, you're just fighting fire with firepower, and that's pretty much what this idea is proposing an alternative to.

       The best one yet is bacon fat, but why kill the pig? I say anyone who wants to fight gets dowsed with millions of gallons of pig shit. It's a renewable resource that is present in abundance and costs very little. We could fit C5 Galaxies with tanks and sprayers and lay a 24/7 deluge of porcine fecal matter across huge swaths of contested territory, discouraging a nasty civil war and creating thousands of acres of fertile farmland. Modified Apaches with firefighting nozzles in place of their autocannons will root out dug-in snipers and loiter in hot spots, and the mopping up will be done by...well, people with mops.
Alterother, Sep 09 2013

       hmm... a rather specific variation of rendering land unusable, that: Porking the Earth.
FlyingToaster, Sep 09 2013

       I like it.
21 Quest, Sep 09 2013

       // you're probably just going to create little more than a pleasant drizzle. //

       Well, being from the Pacific Northwest, I could agree that the drizzle would be pleasant, but maybe it would be bad eough to give all those accustomed to sunshine a case of SAD, or at least drive them indoors since they don't own any Gore-Tex.

       Of course there's the possibiliy that it would evaporate entirely before it hit the ground, form clouds, then rain down on some other nearby country.
scad mientist, Sep 09 2013

       That could precipitate war.
AusCan531, Sep 09 2013

       //an insult towards muslims because 'dog' is considered a grave insult

       Arabic "ibn kalb" ( lit. child born from a dog) ie son of a bitch, if addressing a male.

       Korean "kay say gi" ( lit. child born from a dog) ie son of a bitch, if addressing a male.

       English "son of a bitch" ( lit. child born from a dog) ie son of a bitch, if addressing a male.

       Seems a fairly universal insult?

       NB "Douse the Dogs of War" said in a Brooklyn accent tends to change the meaning.
not_morrison_rm, Sep 10 2013

       This reminds me of that Chill Iraq idea from ages ago.
theleopard, Sep 10 2013

       Morrison, not certain what your examples are intended to prove. You have shown a cultural universal of 'dog' as an insult, but not disproven that in Islamic / arab countries it is considered a grave insult. Reagan used to call Gaddafi the "mad dog of the middle east", Iraqi GWB shoe thrower called him a 'dog', muslims generally don't keep dogs as pets but only for 'work' purposes because they are seen as 'unclean'.

       On a side note, while I enjoy the companionship of dogs, I find North American dog culture (where each private family has their own dogs) a very _____, can't find the right word but thinking 'stupid', phenomena. This is contrasted to Asia, for instance, where a community will possess a few dogs.
rcarty, Sep 10 2013

       I imagine it must be rather difficult to form a close personal bond with something you view as rather tasty, which might explain that contrast. Another explanation might be the simple fact that in the USA, we generally have larger living spaces that most Asians.
21 Quest, Sep 10 2013

       That's true. I don't have a problem with dogs, but just like cars, and other things it just gets to a ridiculous point when every household has several of them.
rcarty, Sep 10 2013

       My houselold is an excellent example of that, but all of my dogs will run if filled with the appropriate fuel, which cannot be said of the cars.
Alterother, Sep 10 2013

       I would say your case is not a good example because you live in isolation. The problem I present is now more clearly understandable because of your involvement as one of density. The issue is more about how social behaviour must be adapted based on closer living arrangements. I suppose because the will to have dogs can be expressed as a general love of dogs people are willing to have a high density of these basically useless sons of bitches pooping everywhere. But even though I like dogs, I very much dislike high dog density.
rcarty, Sep 10 2013

       I can get on board with that. The value of multiple dogs decreases as you reduce the canine containment space, or perhaps the value remains constant but is eclipsed by the detriments, thus creating the false impression of uselessness.

       I will testify that there is a point of diminishing returns with pet dogs even in my environment. Given unlimited containment space, this point seems to hover around 5-7 medium sized specimens. The emotional bond decreases as each new dog loses individual identity to the pack, and even with several acres in which to distribute it, the amount of built-up feces becomes quite unmanagable.

       One can never have too many dead cars, however, as long as you have a large enough front lawn.
Alterother, Sep 10 2013

       //I imagine it must be rather difficult to form a close personal bond with something you view as rather tasty, which might explain that contrast.//

       That's a rather ignorant statement. Most Asian cultures do not eat dog meat, and the ones that do (most prominently in South Korea, but even there not as widely as you think) distinguish between dogs that are raised for meat (a specific breed known as “Nureongi”) and dogs that are kept as pets. Nureongi are rarely—if ever—kept as pets, and other breeds of dog aren't eaten.

       Besides, your premise is flawed. My parents keep chickens, which they are attached to and would never be able to eat. They have no problem eating chicken in general, but there's a big difference between enjoying a tasty meal and eating your pet.
ytk, Sep 10 2013

       I think 21_Quest just makes jocular offhand remarks, that aren't meant to be taken too seriously. There's some truthiness to his claims, but of course people should be wary of inaccuracies especially about racial or ethnic stereotypes, especially if those 'other' people, or sensible people, are around to make defences.
rcarty, Sep 10 2013

       I foresee:Two wet dogs chasing a guy with an empty bucket.
popbottle, Sep 10 2013

       //dog' as an insult, but not disproven that in Islamic / arab countries it is considered a grave insult.

       Because I can't see the difference between an insult and a grave insult. Someone is saying something to insult me, it's all the same, ignore.

       Having lived in an Arabic country I'm guessing "kussumak" is what you would consider a more grave insult than "ibn kalb", being a reference to a part of your mother's anatomy that rarely figures in polite conversation.

       I'm not even that interested in proving it one way or another, let us all know how the field research goes.
not_morrison_rm, Sep 10 2013

       You cannot deny that, wrong though it *may* be, there *is* a logical pathway to thinking there is a connection between fewer dogs being kept as household pets in a culture where dogs just happen to be a foodsource. And don't presume to tell me how common I think dog consumption is in Korea. You have no idea how much time I spent at Osan Air Base. If you'd like some numbers, here's a statistic I challenge you to contest: According to the National Assembly of South Korea, more than 20,000 restaurants, including the 6484 registered restaurants, served soups made from dog meat in Korea in 1998.
21 Quest, Sep 10 2013

       Nmrm, I think if you could disprove you would quite easily, but because you can't, for it's true, you say you won't instead. So, I will take your concession as yet another minor victory in the annals of online forum argumentative combat. Adieu.
rcarty, Sep 10 2013

       //You have no idea how much time I spent at Osan Air Base

       All in, 3 years and 27 days, and 47 separate nights in the drunk tank at the Korean police station.
not_morrison_rm, Sep 10 2013

       //you could disprove you

       How can I disprove myself?
not_morrison_rm, Sep 10 2013

       //distinguish between dogs that are raised for meat (a specific breed known as “Nureongi”) and dogs that are kept as pets. Nureongi are rarely—if ever—kept as pets, and other breeds of dog aren't eaten.//

       That's rather like saying white slaveholders weren't as inhumane as one might think because they only enslaved black people.
21 Quest, Sep 10 2013

       Nmrm, you only disprove yourself further.
rcarty, Sep 10 2013

       //That's rather like saying white slaveholders weren't as inhumane as one might think because they only enslaved black people.//

       Except for being absolutely nothing like saying that. I'm not passing any moral judgment on dog consumption. In actual fact I couldn't care less what people choose to eat. But there is a distinction made between “dogs as pets” and “dogs as food”, even among those who do eat dog meat.

       //And don't presume to tell me how common I think dog consumption is in Korea.//

       You seem to think that it's common enough that people generally consider dogs to be food rather than pets. You're mistaken. As I've said above, people distinguish between food and pets, much like one might have a pet chicken or rabbit and yet still eat those meats.

       There's an article on Wikipedia titled “Dog meat consumption in South Korea” that gives a nice overview of changing attitudes, laws, and public opinion regarding the consumption of dog meat. In actual fact, all dog meat consumption in South Korea is technically illegal, and many South Koreans refuse to eat dog meat on principle. It certainly still occurs, but it's decidedly not such a prominent aspect of South Korean culture that people find it “rather difficult to form a close personal bond with something [they] view as rather tasty”.

       Furthermore, by extrapolating your viewpoint from South Koreans to “Asians” in general, you're slandering an entire race based on your limited and biased exposure to one aspect of a single society.
ytk, Sep 10 2013

       I don't know what the big deal is here. I breed rabbits for meat, and the rabbits fall into three categories: pets, breeders, and meat. They all come from the same stock and have near-as-may-be identical genomes; the only difference is that the pets and breeders have names* and are not destined to be killed and eaten at the age of six months.

       This has never posed a problem for me or for the rabbits.

       Many farmers have pet cows that receive special treatment for no particular reason; some farms are littered with livestock animals that have no specific purpose. Despite my decidedly western sentiments concerning dogs, I can well imagine that dog-consuming Koreans have this same attitude and are no more troubled by it than I am by my rabbits.

       * in the interest of full disclosure, I should note that the occasional meatstock rabbit does receive a name, but it's usually something like 'Mittens' or 'Mister Hat'.
Alterother, Sep 10 2013

       From Syria to rabbit farming via light drizzle.

       Only on the HB.
MaxwellBuchanan, Sep 10 2013

       Here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia article titled 'Dog Meat', which show consumption not in just a single society, but in North Korea as well as the South, China, Vietnam, Timor, Sumatra, Japan, and the Philippines:

       //In North Korea (officially the Democratic People's Republic of Korea), in early 2010, the government included dog meat in its new list of one hundred fixed prices, setting a fixed price of 500 won per kilogram//

       //The eating of dog meat in China dates back thousands of years. It is thought to have medicinal properties, and is especially popular in winter months, as it is believed to generate heat and promote bodily warmth.[46][47][48] The meat is popular in Guangdong and Guangxi[49] whence it went on the menu for Chinese astronauts to consume in outer space.[50] Historical records have moreover shown how in times of food scarcities (as in war-time situations), dogs could also be eaten as an emergency food source.[51]//

       //In China, draft legislation was proposed at the start of 2010, which aims to prohibit the consumption of dog meat.[49] The legislation, however, is not expected to be effective...For example the 4th annual Yulin, Guangxi food fair that took place on May 29, 2011 spanning 10 days consumed 15,000 dogs//

       //The consumption of dog meat is associated with the Minahasa culture of northern Sulawesi and the Bataks of northern Sumatra, where dog meat is considered a festive dish usually reserved for occasions such as weddings and Christmas.[78] Popular Indonesian dog-meat dishes are rica-rica, also called rintek wuuk or "RW",[77] rica-rica waung, guk-guk, and "B1". On Java, there are several dishes made from dog meat, such as sengsu (tongseng asu), sate jamu, and kambing balap.//

       //In 2008, Japan imported 5 tons of dog meat from China//

       //Nevertheless, as is reported from time to time in Philippine newspapers, the eating of dog meat is not uncommon in the Philippines.//

       //Dog meat is consumed more commonly in the northern part of Vietnam than in the south, and can be found in special restaurants which specifically serve this type of meat. Dog meat is believed to bring good fortune in Vietnam.[115] It is seen as being comparable in consumption to chicken or pork.[115] In any urban areas, there are always sections which house a lot of dog-meat restaurants.//

       I never said it must surely be an ordeal to try to bond with an animal you consider to be a food source. I said I imagine it must be difficult, and I do. I never insisted that that idea is correct, but don't try to label me a racist for calling a spade a spade. Dog meat consumption is quite widespread throughout the Asian world and is even mainstream in some parts of it. It just is. I didn't pass judgement on those who consume dog meat in any way. Someody else pointed out that keeping dogs as household pets is rare in Asian cultures, soI simply pointed out that there may be a connection between those two factoids. Rabbits might be an exception to the rule, but the general rule in the USA is that foodsource critters are not kept as pets. Most people don't keep chickens, turkeys, pigs, cattle, or any other livestock as pets and (again with the exception of rabbits) most parts of the USA prohibit the keeping of such animals within city limits without special permits. Regarding the rabbit conundrum, however, I think it'sprobably safe to say that rabbits are not as widely consumed in the USA as other forms of livestock I've mentioned in this annotation. There are quite a lot of folks who will not eat rabbit meat because they consider rabbits to be companion animals, not livestock.
21 Quest, Sep 10 2013

       Yes, dog meat consumption is widespread a common in Asian countries. I see it as not much different than eating pigs, which are a carnivorous mammal, with high intelligence, and a discomforting closeness to humans, and are looked upon as a taboo meat source by some societies.
rcarty, Sep 10 2013

       Back to the idea... the consideration of the word 'dog' as an insult is an interesting one, and an appropriate one, I think, in the context of mindless violence. If the Muslims consider it to be a 'grave insult', then perhaps having it pointed out in such a grandiosely Halfbaked fashion that they're behaving like a pack of wild dogs will really give them some pause and make them sit back and think about their conduct.
21 Quest, Sep 10 2013

       It's a nonlethal and peace oriented action, I'll give you that, except for the insult part which to my mind is the whole key. It's a complex situation in the ME with shia and sunni and the rest waging holy jihad against eachother and the West. It would be nice to be able to splash some water or ice down their balls with some imported snow from Canada, but these guys will not be easily dissuaded. Think about it, they are facing grim death by nerve gas, bullets, and bombs, so what repose will a little H20 give them. Not much or none at all in my opinion. Basically this confict is going to be for years, and once they're done in Syria they will go back to causing shit in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine.
rcarty, Sep 10 2013

       Right. That's why we should drench them with pigshit--not once, as a warning, but in a ceaseless deluge for however many months or years it takes to make them stop fighting. Nobody's tried it yet. It could work.
Alterother, Sep 10 2013

       ^ You say pigshit, I say water. In sufficient quantities, a deluge is a deluge.
21 Quest, Sep 10 2013

       Gallon for gallon, I think liquid pig feces would be far more effective than water.
Alterother, Sep 10 2013

       Fair enough... please note that I never specified fresh water. Using salt water means you aren't supplying them with drinking water, and will likely corrode their weapons and supplies.
21 Quest, Sep 10 2013


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